I want to motorcycle ...

[totalmotorcycle]

You mean this one?

Well, either you just made the decision to buy it or as luck would have it, it's gone sale pending. But what a beautiful example of a GS500E. I've always loved the GS500E style myself and was saddened to see it discontinued for the GS500F (which is also a great bike, just not naked)

If you did buy it, very good choice! Can't go wrong, just have to make sure the bike with such low milage doesn't need any work (you would need to put new tires on it BTW if they are original)

About this Motorcycle

2001 SUZUKI GS500, This GS 500 has only 2444 miles ! Super clean ! Like new condition. Awesome gas saver and solid everyday transportation.Fully serviced out . Only 2899.00 and you can layaway it with 30% down and 90 days to pay out . http://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2001 ... -106871404

[Ninja Geoff]

Regarding my 650, I like the relative comfort of it, the 52+ mpg, and the okay power that it has. Though I refer to the power as being only "okay" because I made the mistake of riding two different liter bikes and am now hooked on the idea of having 150+ hp. Though I'm also hooked on having a dual sport, an old bmw, and maybe a scooter, so its going to have to wait until I've taken care of those first.

Though simple things like GOOD brake pads (ie EBC sintered pads), stainless lines, and good tires (I only run Pilot Road 2's on my ninja) can improve the important things such as stopping and turning. That said, no reason not to run one as you find it, but as the brake pads and tires wear out, something to consider replacing them with.

[totalmotorcycle]

Geoff, I know you already know this, but horsepower isn't what makes you feel like are you going fast (acceleration), torque is. Horsepower just makes you get a higher top speed. So, if you are looking at the sensation of being pulled back hard, arm stretcher, wheelin' type of feeling, then you want a light bike with high torque. Weight is key for both torque and hp. Ideally you want peak torque at the lowest RPM and have a flat torque curve.

Horsepower matters little unless it comes with torque (think of a little electric motor vs a water wheel in pulling things).

The Ninja 650R has around 41 ft-lb of torque @ 7000 rpm on the dyno(Parallel Twin); A SV650 has 47 @7000 rpm (V-Twin); and a V7 Moto Guzzi 750 makes 52 @ 2650rpm (transverse V-Twin). It may not seem like a big difference in peak torque (about 14% and 27% more vs the 650R), but the V-Twin torque comes on earlier than a parallel twin (closer) or inline-4 (further). And thus the reason you need to really whip up (7000-12000+ rpm) an inline-4 to really get the power out of it.

The parallel twin of the 650 Ninja is a nice torquey motor and would feel about stronger than say a Triumph Speed Four. And in fact, could beat a Ninja ZX-10R in a stop light GP as you have about the same torque as he does off the line and are a little ligher even though he has x2 torque and almost x3 hp. I've seen videos where a stock Harley-Davidson will beat a supersport bike (in a straight line) because of this and of course, the HD guy cleans up the bets.

And for the 150+ hp litre bikes... Notice the Ducati 1198, it's an L-Twin vs the other two inline-4's (last chart). If you ride everyday around 4-5000rpm, the Ducati will feel much stronger of a bike than the other two because of where the torque comes in (low rpm). With the BMW and Kawasaki you would have to ride at 11-12,000 RPM to get the peak torque and by then (in 1st gear!) you are most likely going illegal speeds (75mph+). And I know very few riders who scream around in 1st gear @12000+ rpm on the road. HAHA.

But really, there is only so fast you can go on public streets anyways and all bikes today (inc any 250cc) can break those speeds so hp is even more useless in the end.

To sum up:

If you ride at everyday riding (up to 5500 rpm), then you want a bike that will have peak torque below and in that range. It's one of the big reasons I like the Moto Guzzi so much. It's big bike torque in that rpm range but weights in at under 400lbs. In the end, no graph will give that you seat of the pants feeling so it's best to just try them all you are interested in!

Oh man, I can't believe I just spent over an hour editing this one post up. Well, at least it's a useful post!


WARNING: DYNOS are quite unreliable as numbers can change even day-to-day or run-to-run. So it's best to use the manufacturers quoted numbers.










If you look at the Ducati on this chart you will see why just quoting a peak number is not as meaningful as seeing the whole torque curve. While it is true to say peak torque is at 7900 rpm, a whole lot of it actually comes on at 3,500! That's quite a different kettle of fish right there in seat of the pants feeling.

By understanding how to read a dyno chart you can inturperate that to seat of the pants feeling of what a bike is like. Remember, you want peak torque at low rpms and a light bike to get that very, very additive feeling of power, speed and acceleration without the needsto scream the engine or go way past legal speeds to get it.

Not only that once you understand this simple concept it will put your understanding of the motorcycle engine light years ahead of your peers but it will also make you a better rider too.

UPDATE:

Here are a couple of video examples to show how torque at a low RPM is more important than horsepower when it comes to power:

Analysis: What to look for - 1/4 mile 2011 R1 vs Ducati 1198 Panigale. If you just read the numbers alone, it's: Ducati: 10.54, R1: 10.6. And you would think, wow, both bikes are roughly the same.

It's true both bikes are high in horsepower and torque, (the Ducati has more torque, the R1 more horsepower) but the Ducati 1198's torque comes on much sooner than the R1's. Notice at the 6 sec mark it's over for the R1 already. At end end of the 1/4 mile as the R1 engine spins up to 15,000 rpm (@ 139mph) it then starts to catch up but still loses in the end. On any normal street the power of either would be less useable* but the Ducati 1198's would always take the R1 in any acceleration contest thanks to that low rpm torque.

*(unless you do 140mph on the road that is).




Analysis: What to look for - Harley vs sportbike drag race. Now this is the type of thing I was mentioning about in the above post and one that even I would guess wrong on the outcome years ago. The Harley is a Harley-Davidson V-Rod, the Sportbike (blury guess here) looks like a GSXR. Now the V-Rod has quite a disadvantage here you would think, much less horsepower and a lower revving motor. But again we see at the start it's over for the GSXR and like the R1 above, only starts to catch up at the end of the 1/4 mile.





Analysis: What to look for - Sportster vs R6 drag race. The data: 11.68 Sportster vs 11.6 for the R1. Start video at 17 sec. Like the above video but with smaller bikes. The Sportster is (I assume) is a 1200XL. The other a Yamaha R6. Again, the R6 has way more horsepower than the Sportster. In fact, I'm sure if you ever mentioned a sportster could beat an R6 you could get laughed at, but hey, bet them and take their money home. Again, low torque = more power than the R6's big horsepower advantage off the line and about 3/4 down the track. It isn't until they are going over 100mph that the R6 really catches up as it's engine is screaming into the 5 digit range and past legal speeds.



Now, there are a lot of videos out there that show different things and I tried to pick three that show a "slow" bike with low end torque vs a "fast" bike with highend horsepower (by slow and fast I am meaning how the typical rider interpurates horsepower data).


Mike

Reminder for me: I should add all this into the beginners guide when I have time as it's a much misunderstood concept by riders.

[Hanson]

Mike,

That was the GS I was looking at, it is exactly the type of deal I would like to find if I decide to buy an inexpensive used bike for cash, but I am not buying at this time. I am going to get trained first. Also, thanks for the tip on looking at replacing the rubber on older used bikes even if the mileage is very low.

Your detailed post about the torque and horsepower was very informative. An extreme example of the difference between torque and horsepower might be found in the EVA Track T-800 TDI, built in the Netherlands, that produces 50 horsepower at 3000 rpm but a massive 74 ft-lb of torque at 1800 rpm. Diesel power! I find this bike intriguing but it is not available in the US and the price tag would be around 25k. I think a few have been imported to Canada and they are available in the UK.



Ninja Geoff,

"... hooked on the idea of having 150+ hp. Though I'm also hooked on having a dual sport, an old bmw, and maybe a scooter ...", I understand completely. I can not believe just how obsessive I have become about motorcycling and how can anyone settle on just one bike? My wife is most certain that I am suffering from a late onset form of a midlife crisis but I don't think it has anything at all to do with age. Motorcycling is a contagion, I am infected, and we are exhibiting the same epidemiology.

Safe travels,
Richard

[blues2cruise]

There will always be another bike for sale. No need to rush into the first thing you see.

[Ninja Geoff]

Regarding that 650R dyno, that seems on par with everything else I've read.

And the 2006 CBR1000RR will break triple digits in second gear. And regarding the torque of the 650R, I've seen videos of them hanging with ZX-6RR's (the old 636, not the 600) to about 90 mph, which is third gear on the 650R. Beyond that, the HP difference really kicks in and the 636 is like "lol, twins".

PS - Just because the 636 is "only" 636 cc's compared to the ninjas 649 (ish), doesn't make it slower or a better bike for a starter. It's a terrible bike for a starter. That whole 4 cylinder vs twin thing. Torque is how hard you hit the wall, hp is how fast you hit the wall.

There will always be another bike for sale. No need to rush into the first thing you see.

Truer words haven't been said.

[Wrider]

It really is a surreal experience to break triple digits and realize you still have another 4 or 5 gears to go (any 08+ liter bike will break it in first).

Agreed on a torquey bike though. That's why I like riding my Z750S over my buddy's 636. His is actually slightly faster than mine even accounting for weight differences in ourselves, but it doesn't actually begin to move until he's past 8 or 9K RPM (around 50-60 MPH), so it's boring on city streets. My Z has a bit more torque though and is a kick in the pants to just twist and go, as is any twin I've ever ridden.

Also for what it's worth, the feeling of acceleration is amplified by the more upright seating position of a bike. If you are laying down the acceleration goes directly along your spine and it basically feels like moving upward in an elevator. However if you lay on your back in the same elevator it feels a lot faster because everything is moving in a way different than normal.

Looking at what you want Hanson, definitely take a good long look at a Versys, DL650, DR650, or KLR650. None of them are overly powerful, but all will cruise the highway and can be taken onto dirt roads (or sans the Versys, onto fire roads).

That said, sounds like you're one heck of a busy guy to begin with! haha. As a former Boy Scout myself and one who would love to build up a Ram 2500/3500 diesel pickup, you've definitely gotten my attention! I'm also a big shooting sports/hunting/outdoors guy. Going for elk in two weeks!

[sunshine229]

My goals, in descending order of importance, for a first motorcycle are; survival, skills acquisition, commuting to work on surface roads, and weekend trips that include highway travel.

Hi Richard! Firstly, welcome to TMW!

Based on the quote above - you and I are going to get along just fine - I am on the same wavelength! When I buy a bike it's all about safety / survival / ability to handle it. My first bike was a 1981 Honda CB400T that I owned from 2003 - 2007. I loved starting on it because I could safely handle it pretty much right from the beginning. I had only three instances where I almost dropped the bike when coming to a stop, but each time I was able to save it. And riding that lil' thing for four years really gave me an excellent footing to start on.

From there I bought a Z750S, which was a marked step up in all directions. There was never a moment that I was scared on that bike, but I knew that my skills were just good enough to make me feel safe on it. I thought I would own it for a long, long time because I was for sure there would be many years to come before I would even use 80% of the bike.

Then came our move to England. So I sold it and bought a similar bike to tour around London and south UK on. I had a lot of fun with my Suzuki GSX750Y (standard sports bike) and again, always felt in total control of it.

Moving here to Houston I didn't really know what to buy, but I ended up with a 2009 Ninja 650R. It's not as powerful as my Z750S was, but I feel completely in control of it and therefore feel very safe. I use it mostly for commuting right now, and commuting in Houston is dangerous enough that there is no need to add in the stress of a bike that is at the edge or outside of my skill level.

So... I completely understand and appreciate where you are coming from and it's refreshing to hear from someone who has a real good head on his shoulders and wants to start off on the right foot! Thank you!

Given your physical size, I don't think you should be afraid of the 650R or DL650 (two awesome bikes!), however I do think that if you start on something smaller you will have more opportunity to hone your skills before moving up. When you take the course you'll be on something quite small so you will be able to test the waters of a small bike to see what you think.

I'm actually quite excited to go through this journey with you, so I truly hope you'll stick around and let us know how things go over time. It's a pleasure to have you around.

[gsJack]

Let me join the Hawk 400 first bike club too, mine was an 81 CB400T that I put 6 months and 6k miles on before trading it in on a 82 CB750K. I mention this because the first time I cranked the throttle wide open while accelerating I didn't have my body set right and almost threw myself off the back. I hesitate to suggest more than bikes like the GS500 or Ninja 500 for new riders or for returning riders without much experience although many consider the current 650 twins to be suitable. The current 600cc sportbikes are far more powerful and responsive than that 80's CB750 I had.

Although most consider the GS500 to be a good beginners bikers I consider it to be a good enders bike too. LOL I've put my last 13 years and 170k of my 400k miles on a couple of GS500s and enjoyed every mile of it. I was running it thru the mountain twisties with friends on bigger bikes 10 year ago but am just putting around trying to act my age now. Bikes like the Ninja 500 and GS500 are good all around go anywhere do anything bikes so stick with them until you learn to ride them well. You didn't mention your age but I was 52 when I got my first bike 28 years ago never having even sat on one before.

[Hanson]

Wrider,

I hope you have a great time on your elk hunt. This weekend I completed a 23 hour training course and I am now an NRA certified rifle and black powder rifle instructor. Theoretically, I am qualified to teach someone how to shoot a rifle, but one of the two women in the class shot a 1/4 MOA five shot string that made all of my efforts look amateurish. Mandatory motorcycle content: the man sitting on my left during the classroom portions was a 35 year veteran Dallas LEO who rides motorcycles, at least when the weather is nice. Also, I will certainly have a hard look at the bikes you have suggested, and thanks.

sunshine229,

Thanks for the warm and friendly welcome. I think it is likely that the Honda I rode so many years ago was also a CB400T, but my performance record was not nearly so unblemished as is yours. One winter night I was returning home, let us just say from an amorous adventure and leave it at that, and it was very cold, it is not as if I had any motorcycle appropriate clothing. I took the exit ramp, rolled up to a red stop light, and promptly dropped my bike. My legs where so stiff from the cold that I could not get my feet off the pegs and simply toppled over on the left side. Luckily, there was no one else stupid enough to be out that late so I must ask a question that has perplexed me all these many years; if a man drops his bike and no one is there to witness his foolishness, did it ever truly happen? This was not the only time my bike kissed the pavement, but I think I will not talk about the other incidents lest my reputation be permanently diminished.

As far as scary episodes, on another winter night I was riding home going north on U.S. 75, let us just say I was returning from an ... never mind. It was dark and foggy with very limited visibility and I was riding in the left tire track of the right lane. I was clearly over-driving my headlights in that I could not see far enough down the road for the speed I was traveling. I was going to exit the highway and I shifted to the right tire track and just at that instant a large object rushed passed to my left where I had been riding. I about lost my lunch, it was closer to breakfast, and I pulled off onto the shoulder to give my heart a chance to return to its normal location in my chest. I turned around on the shoulder and rode back up the empty highway going in the wrong direction, but certainly not in a traffic lane. The object was a large squarish block of concrete with bits of mangled steal reinforcement poking out in various places. It must have fallen off a construction truck. I could not come close to picking it up so I sat on my butt and pushed it slowly off the road with my legs. It would slide about half a foot at a time while grinding scratches into the pavement. I would push, scoot forward, and repeat, all the time looking pensively up the highway and praying that no one would come. It took forever to get it out of the right lane, perhaps a minute but it felt like forever, and a bit more time to get it all the way across the break down lane. Between the terror, adrenaline, and the leg workout, my entire body was trembling and it took several more minutes to compose myself enough to get back on my bike. Not one car passed during the entire episode.

TMW Forum,

I have made my very first motorcycle related purchase as a born again motorcyclist. Amazon is shipping me one copy each of The Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence, Proficient Motorcycling, Total Control, and Against the Wind for a total of $69.51. I am going to keep a running total of all my motorcycle expenses. It will give me a good idea of just how much jewelry Mrs. Hanson is going to receive at Christmas. This is not to imply a Quid pro quo but a wise husband understand that an effective spousal attitude maintenance program is a necessary, if not sufficient, prerequisite to any new significant endeavor, especially for any activity that might be construed as physically hazardous. I became fully familiar with navigating this complex and horrifying process when I was looking into obtaining an LEUP (low explosives use permit) from the BATFE and building a Type 4 magazine into our garage in order to legally purchase and store larger ACPC rocket motors. My boys love the smell of ammonium perchlorate in the morning. A few small shiny and sparkling objects aid considerable in those conversations that involve colorful phrases such as, "Richard ... your going to blow up our damn house you moron!". I don't think I will ever accurately comprehend why this is true, but experience teaches that it is a reliable fact and so an occasional little velvet box is just an integral part of a man's life, at least if he has any desire at all to experience any of the numerous blessings of domestic tranquility. My dear Susi considers my desire to ride motorcycles to be both significant and hazardous so there is no doubt in my feable mind that eventually there will be a small box containing bits of shinny metal and most likely chunks of carbon in that octahedral crystalline allotrope most often favored by those wonderful and incomprehensible creatures that condescend to share their precious lives with us.

I have also been shopping for helmets online, I don't know if this is a good idea, but I wanted to gain a better understand of what is available including features. I hate shopping in brick and mortar stores but I don't mind shopping online. Does anyone have any recommendations for a motorcycle related online retailer? Also, is anyone using a pinlock visor to control fogging and how would you evaluate the effectiveness of this approach? I plan on eventually moto-commuting year round and there was a lot of fog this morning. I am considering an Arai RX-Q in Hi-Viz Neon from revzilla where I can return the helmet if it does not fit. Is revzilla an honest online retailer with decent customer service?

Thanks and Best Regards,
Richard