18 things I have learn about the Terry Shaivo case

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Meanie
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18 things I have learn about the Terry Shaivo case

#1 Unread post by Meanie »

1) Jeb Bush, George W. Bush, and Tom Delay are all world renowned neurologists.

2) 22 successive court battles that all ended in exactly the same way means there is something wrong with the courts, not the Schindler's case.

3) Mike is after money which is why he turned down 1 million dollars and 10 million dollars to sign over guardianship.

4) Congress and the State Legislature of Florida has nothing better to do than pry into the private medical affairs of others.

5) Pulling life support is bad in Florida when authorized by the legal next-of-kin, but pulling life support is good in Texas when you run out of money and the mother pleads not to pull the plug on her baby.

6) Medical diagnoses are best performed by watching highly editted videotape made by Randall Terry rather than in person by trained physicians.

7) Minimum wage making nursing assistants are more qualified to diagnose a persistant vegetative state than experienced neurologists.

8. Cerebral spinal fluid is a magical potion that can mimic the entire functions of a missing cerebral cortex.

9) 15 years in the same persistant state is not really enough time to make an accurate diagnosis.

10) A feeding tube that infuses yellow nutritional goop is not really "life support".

11) Jesus was wrong when he said that a man and woman should leave their parents and cleave only to each other.

12) Marriage is the most sacred of all unions, except when it isn't.

13) Interfering in a family's private tragedy is a great reason to cut short a vacation, but getting a memo that warns a known terrorist is determine to strike inside the US is cause to relax and finish up some R&R.

14) Pro-lifers are really compassionate people which is why they are hoping that Michael Schiavo dies a horrible painful death.

15) The Supreme Court of the United States and the State Supreme Court of Florida mean "Maybe" when they are saying "No!".

16) Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia is a bleeding heart liberal.

17) 7 Supreme Court Justices were appointed by republican presidents, so it's Clinton's fault.

18) A judge who makes rulings based on the law is obviously an atheist, liberal, democratic activist even though he is a conservative, republican, Southern Baptist.
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JJ
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#2 Unread post by JJ »

Well Meanie I don't know if your for Terri's life or not. Interesting post however. Terri is a Roman Catholic and the view of RC's is that life is sacred and must be preserved. Extraordinary measures however are not necessary and this is where the line keeps moving and is blurred. 100 years ago almost everything that we do in medicine today would have been extraordinary. As medical knowledge changes and advances what is extraordinary therefore keeps changing as well. From the RC point of view, I think a feeding tube is not extraordinary.

The whole concept of when to allow death is a slippery slope. What is acceptable will keep changing and someday one of us or a loved one may be in a position of being denied care as a result. We will then say how did this happen and how did we get here?

Do we want a society where life is a cheap commodity?

We should all preserve life.

JJ

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#3 Unread post by Meanie »

JJ wrote:Well Meanie I don't know if your for Terri's life or not. Interesting post however. Terri is a Roman Catholic and the view of RC's is that life is sacred and must be preserved. Extraordinary measures however are not necessary and this is where the line keeps moving and is blurred. 100 years ago almost everything that we do in medicine today would have been extraordinary. As medical knowledge changes and advances what is extraordinary therefore keeps changing as well. From the RC point of view, I think a feeding tube is not extraordinary.

The whole concept of when to allow death is a slippery slope. What is acceptable will keep changing and someday one of us or a loved one may be in a position of being denied care as a result. We will then say how did this happen and how did we get here?

Do we want a society where life is a cheap commodity?

We should all preserve life.

JJ
JJ...answer me honestly.....would you want to live in a vegetative state as Terry? After 15 years, you really believe all of a sudden, there's hope? The "preserve life" statement is hypocritical since nobody in their right mind would choose to live as she. BTW, please don't tell me she's responding or alert because she isn't. Read the information I provided in my reply on the other thread about "right or wrong". It explains how the brain functions or in this case, doesn't function, as well. All you right to lifers are hypicritical since I will bet my life nobody in that group would live as she is now. Her parents are selfish for wanting to treat her as a human doll. She cannot eat, chew, read, control any body functions, etc etc etc and you people think she should live, Un freakin believable.
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#4 Unread post by rdeviney »

This is why my wife and I both had Living Wills prepared, and Durable Power of Attorney for the executor. Technology can keep the blood flowing, long after a person would have died without extreme intervention by the medical folks. I agree with all the things listed on Meanies list, even though I am a white, male, conservative, evangelical, gun-toting, wood-cutting, career federal bureaucrat with a leave-me-alone libertarian bent.

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#5 Unread post by JJ »

Meanie wrote:
JJ wrote:Well Meanie I don't know if your for Terri's life or not. Interesting post however. Terri is a Roman Catholic and the view of RC's is that life is sacred and must be preserved. Extraordinary measures however are not necessary and this is where the line keeps moving and is blurred. 100 years ago almost everything that we do in medicine today would have been extraordinary. As medical knowledge changes and advances what is extraordinary therefore keeps changing as well. From the RC point of view, I think a feeding tube is not extraordinary.

The whole concept of when to allow death is a slippery slope. What is acceptable will keep changing and someday one of us or a loved one may be in a position of being denied care as a result. We will then say how did this happen and how did we get here?

Do we want a society where life is a cheap commodity?

We should all preserve life.

JJ
JJ...answer me honestly.....would you want to live in a vegetative state as Terry? After 15 years, you really believe all of a sudden, there's hope? The "preserve life" statement is hypocritical since nobody in their right mind would choose to live as she. BTW, please don't tell me she's responding or alert because she isn't. Read the information I provided in my reply on the other thread about "right or wrong". It explains how the brain functions or in this case, doesn't function, as well. All you right to lifers are hypicritical since I will bet my life nobody in that group would live as she is now. Her parents are selfish for wanting to treat her as a human doll. She cannot eat, chew, read, control any body functions, etc etc etc and you people think she should live, Un freakin believable.


Personally, I choose life. However as 'rdeviney' said a living will is something that everyone should have. My wife & I have instructions on our lives and even how our funerals are arranged. We don't know how truly what Terri's wishes are. Many people suspect the husband has other ideas beside what's best for his wife.

My point however isn't all about what should be done with Terry Shaivo but how we pass judgement on others lives when we have no right. In the absence of a living will I don't think we don't have that right. My neighbour recently died. I had power of attorney and was executor in his estate. During his battle with cancer he asked me to make sure he had every opportunity at life and did not want the plug pulled. He got his wish. With Terry Shaivo, she did not expcet to die. Before her heart attack she was a young woman with hopes and expectations for a bright future. Most people in her position would not think about a living will or I suspect would not seriously think about whether she would want to live or die.

So when should we 'pull the plug'. When we are in a persistive vegetative state? How about withholding treatment of the elderly? How about withholding treatment of the poor - they can't pay - too bad. What I mentioned earlier about a slippery slope HAS started amd WILL continue unless we draw a line in the sand. You've got your opinion & I've got mine. I'm sure that scores of people will line up behind each one of us supporting each of our arguments.

By the way, I have had formal training as a paralegal (I don't however practice). Every lawyer and paralegal has access to 'canned' wills, forms, etc. The only living will documents I have seen promote pulling the plug when there is no reasonable hope. I have never seen a living will that promotes life under all circumstances or where no extraordinary means be employed. For those people reading this post who want a living will reflecting life under all circumstances or any variation of this I would recommend that you articulate your wishes to your lawyer and all of your family. Make sure you do not sign a standard 'canned' living will unless you read it, think about the possible senarios and are happy with the choice a family member or government appointed official will make.

Terry Shaivo, thank you for forcing us all across the world to discuss death and dying. May you have peace.

JJ

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#6 Unread post by boingk »

Yeah, i totally agree with 'Meanie' in his views, so far as that Terrie Shaivo really should be let die. I don't want to sound like an insensitive bastar-d here, but its people like that that really do put a strain on the medical system, and a drain on Government rescources. Wait, that IS unfair, they didnt choose to be in that state, but there family sure as hell want them to keep on in it. I'd say that at the very minimum, there should be some sort of a law that governs when to pull support unless the family is willing to fully finince it. Maybe something along the 'missing assumed dead' law, you know, the seven years thing. Come seven years, no brain activity, they pull the plug unless you pay ALL costs. Now is that or is that not fair? Because, to put it bluntly; these people are a huge drain on the medical system, as they are consuming a large amount of funding and care with no, or very minimal, chances of recovery. I know that if i was pronounced brain dead [heaven forbid] i'd want the plug to be pulled. Not just my food, all the damn plugs. Now THAT is going in my will, when i get to the age i can write one that can be recognised by the law.
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#7 Unread post by sv-wolf »

To pull the plug. This was a decision my wife had to make eighteen years ago after her sister collapsed with encephalitis, went into coma and then finally lost all brain function.

It is a decision, so help me, that one day I might have to make for my wife who is laughing and smiling and chatting to me now but who has a degenerative neurological condition which will first paralyse her and then gradually rob her of her other functions.

I have no idea, if it is necessary, how I will make this decision. She will have time to make her wishes known to me before it becomes impossible for her to communicate, but as she says herself, what we wish now may change with time and circumstance, and there may come a time when she has no ability to have wishes at all - which I understand was the case with Terry Shaivo.

How can you even begin to debate this situation in abstract terms? This is human, subjective, personal. The debate that has surrounded the Shaivo case is political and public. It's about power, vote catching, watching your back, the law of property, the fears and consciences of a whole nation and also a genuine wish to do what is right - if only we could know (as opposed to have beliefs) about what this is. The rational arguments are just the froth on the wave as far as this one person is concerned.

What Terry Shaivo might have wished when she was able to do so she would have wished for a lively, active person. It is likely that she would not have been able even to recognise herself as she was just before she finally died. What the motives of her relatives were you can only establish up to a point. In reality, human motivation is rarely less than a very complex mix of good and bad. Arguments about what Terry might have wished for as a Christian or a Roman Catholic, are speculative. I was brought up RC, and although I have no religion now, I do have hundreds of RC relatives, the huge majority of whom make a very personal and pragmatic assessment of the teachings of their church, no two of which are the same.

I have very little respect for the reasons and the decisions of the capitalist state and its politicians. The spectacle of Bush declaring his belief in the sanctity of life should be commemorated in marble as a reminder of human hypocricy in its most monumental form. The judiciary is concerned ultimately with property law.

The 'slippery slope' argument I have some sympathy for, but as with the terms of much of this debate it is far too simplistic. Glibly repeating the words 'slippery slope' don't constitue an argument. Decisions can be monitored and, if necessary, reversed. Much depends much on the tenor of society as a whole and where it is moving. I see the risks here, but risks have to be assessed and balanced against other concerns.

All this seems a million miles away from the very human, probably painful and confused decisions that the family had to make. If the moment comes when I have to make my decision, I would not want my actions hampered by a rigid legal system based on someone else's religious, 'pro-life' or 'compassion for the dying' philosophy. The one thing I would hope is that if it comes to it, my wife and I should be allowed to make the final decision ourselves, and preferably in private. I know that is unlikely. And I know the reasons why it is unlikely, some good, most bad or hypocritical. But that is what I would want.
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#8 Unread post by Scott58 »

That whole thing was none of my business. If I'm vegged out i don't care. If I have a wife who says pull the plug, that is what I expect to happen. i don't want to suck the life out of those around me. Let me go and get on with your lives. If she decides she can't let me go that's fine too. Either way it's noone elses business.
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#9 Unread post by CentralOzzy »

A while ago now....I met....a young male who was to become my 'Best Mate' of all time. (Not including my immediate family.)

I'm sure most of us have experienced some 'so called' friends who end up stabbing us in the back for what ever reason before, so it was refreshing to experience a relationship based on mutual respect, loyalty & love. Over time our mateship grew. He watched my back & as the older person, I protected & guided him in return. We became bonded & had a unique understanding between us. We even came to a point where we didn't even have to verbally communicate our wishes or intentions to each other, just a 'look' or gesture was enough to get the message across.

All those elements you'd ideally wish to have with a friend were there, which in my opinion is super rare. This cherished relationship lasted for 14 incredible years....Until....

On X-Mas Eve of 2000 he became very sick. I took him to medical care only to discover the situation was grave. Having an operation, as I understood it, was grasping at straws because the quality of his life was already GONE & so....then, the realization that I was to loose my best friend of all time was upon me. I burst into tears.

The question was....do we put him thru the ordeal of a 'long-shot' operation or let him suffer & die a slow death?

To me the decision was obvious, neither!

The most important thing was, to do what was best for my Mate & end his suffering gracefully, just like what I'd wish would be done with me, if it was ME on MY Death Bed.
Thank God the doctor would administer a lethal injection!

SO....I gently held my mate & whispered in his ear to ease his mind as the Doc slowly pushed the lethal substance from the syringe into his bloodstream. My Mate passed away & I was heartbroken. He was the BEST Dog I ever had.

*If ever I'm in a situation where my quality of life is really compromised, then I choose to Die gracefully, quickly & with dignity.

Then I'd expect everyone to have a HUGE Party in my Honour!!
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