CO gun control bills

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CO gun control bills

#1 Unread post by Wrider »

Hope y'all don't mind if I post this up here.

CO has had a lot of gun control bills going through the state legislature lately.

-Banning concealed carry on campus. (No matter that violent and sexual assaults have dropped over 500% since campus carry was legalized in 2003.)
-Criminalizing private sales.
-Background checks on anyone you lend your gun to, including your buddy to take it out to the range and try it out. (Even if it's just to borrow it.)
-Having gun buyers pay for said background checks with no cap on the fees imposed. (The limiting language says "direct or indirect costs associated with the background check".)
-Banning any magazine over 15 rounds. (Including the standard capacity 30 round AR magazine, and my go-out-and-shoot-for-fun 25 round .22 magazines.)
-Banning any "assault weapons" defined as having a grippable area forward of the trigger and a detachable magazine (which includes plenty of traditional style bolt action hunting rifles btw).
-Banning any shotgun capable of being modified to hold more than 8 rounds. (Basically any shotgun other than a double barrel or single shot.)

For what it's worth, VA tech was the deadliest shooting in US history. The only one of these proposed laws he would have broken was one that VA already had in place, no weapons on campus...

I'd love to hear from people in other countries about what they think about this. I'd love to get into a good debate about this too with someone. Only restrictions I will place on it are: no circular logic, no emotional arguments, and no comparisons to other countries with dissimilar cultures (believe it or not I saw a study trying to compare the US to Japan).


Also for what it's worth, the people attempting to pass these bills are the same ones that, for the majority, passed the exhaust system ordnance in Denver, banning any exhaust without an EPA stamp on it. Same ones that passed a ban on pit bulls. Same ones that passed a ban on >10 round magazines within Denver itself (except for LEOs).
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Re: CO gun control bills

#2 Unread post by HYPERR »

Gun control seems to work very very very well in Japan, England, Iceland, Denmark, et al

Wrider wrote:no comparisons to other countries with dissimilar cultures (believe it or not I saw a study trying to compare the US to Japan).
What is it about Japan that renders it incomparable to the US and what makes the comparison of the two countries so unbelievable to you?
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Re: CO gun control bills

#3 Unread post by Wrider »

You do realize that violent crimes are higher in England than in the US, and they're working on banning pocket knives.

Japan is a completely different culture than the US. Similar would be England, Australia, possibly similar to France/Germany.

Would you like for me to break out the stats I'm talking about?
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Re: CO gun control bills

#4 Unread post by Johnj »

SB 195 Yes
SB 196 No
SB 197 Yes
HB 1224 No
HB 1226 No
HB 1228 No / they do anyway lol
HB 1229 Yes
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Re: CO gun control bills

#5 Unread post by Wrider »

Johnj wrote:SB 195 Yes (No longer allowed to take a CCW course online)
SB 196 No (Makes gun manufacturers and sellers liable for any illegal use of the guns they sell)
SB 197 Yes (Any domestic violence misdemeanor prohibited from owning a gun)
HB 1224 No (Bans any magazine over 15 rounds for rifle/handgun and 8 rounds for shotgun, also bans any shotgun capable of being modified to hold over 8 rounds)
HB 1226 No (bans concealed carry on campus)
HB 1228 No / they do anyway lol (gun buyers pay for background checks with no cap on fees)
HB 1229 Yes (extends background checks to everybody including those who just want to borrow a gun for the day)
SB 195 I can agree with

Fortunately SB 196 was killed by its creator.

SB 197 I don't agree with on the basis that a "domestic violence misdemeanor" basically means anything, including an argument with your neighbors.

HB 1224 Nope, complete crumb here. It would ban any pump/semi-auto shotgun out there. It would ban standard capacity magazines including those of the Glock 17, the most popular self defense handgun on the market, and the choice of a good number of LEOs.

HB 1226 Nope, statistics have proven that assaults (especially sexual assaults on women) have dropped over 500% since it was legalized in 03.

HB 1228 No, because "direct and indirect costs associated with the background check" can be construed so many different ways it's not even funny.

HB 1229 No because 1. it criminalizes private sales period. 2. it extends background checks to any "transfer of a firearm" including a parent passing down a hunting rifle/shotgun to their kid, letting your buddy borrow a shotgun for a day on the range, etc etc etc. Basically if it is out of your hands and you're not in the immediate vicinity, you need a full on background check to be legal.


If you want to look up the full text of any of them, look them up via "CO HB 13 1229" format on google. Should be your first or second result.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#6 Unread post by HYPERR »

Wrider wrote:You do realize that violent crimes are higher in England than in the US, and they're working on banning pocket knives.
Murder by firearm
US: 9,369
UK: 14

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms

Wrider wrote: Japan is a completely different culture than the US. Similar would be England, Australia, possibly similar to France/Germany.
Explain to me why you feel Japan is a completely different culture than the US.
Why do you feel US, England and Australia are similar while France and Germany are only possibilities.
Wrider wrote: Would you like for me to break out the stats I'm talking about?
Sure why not. How does one even define violent crime? It's not black and white like murder by firearm.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#7 Unread post by Johnj »

Oops, I meant no on HB 1229. It was late.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#8 Unread post by Wrider »

HYPERR wrote:
Wrider wrote:You do realize that violent crimes are higher in England than in the US, and they're working on banning pocket knives.
Murder by firearm
US: 9,369
UK: 14

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms
Oh we definitely have a higher rate of firearm homicide, no arguments there. I said overall violent crime as defined by both Home Office and the FBI.
2011 violent crime UK: 2,100,000
Source: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-sta ... 11-12.html
2011 violent crime US: 1,203,564
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... lent-crime

Now keep in mind the population of the UK is 62,641,000 and the population for the US is 313,914,000
That translates to a per capita rate of:
UK: 3,352 / 100,000
US: 383 / 100,000
As you can see, the violent crime rate as reported by the Home Office (British version of the FBI) is 10 times higher than the violent crime reported by the FBI.
HYPERR wrote:
Wrider wrote: Japan is a completely different culture than the US. Similar would be England, Australia, possibly similar to France/Germany.
Explain to me why you feel Japan is a completely different culture than the US.
Why do you feel US, England and Australia are similar while France and Germany are only possibilities.
Japan is a much more respectful and reserved country than the US is. Also, firearms have been outlawed from private ownership since the end of WWII.
Germany and France are also culturally different than the US in the fact that they're more socially open and trusting than the US. Germany tends to have a lot more restrictions in place for things, including driving and firearms. France is a very socially liberal country though, including with its restrictions
The UK had guns until 1997 (after which the violent crime rate jumped 4X btw).
Australia still has guns, but all semiautomatic firearms are outlawed there. (After they were outlawed, btw, the already 2X US rape rate tripled, home invasions doubled, etc.)
HYPERR wrote:
Wrider wrote: Would you like for me to break out the stats I'm talking about?
Sure why not. How does one even define violent crime? It's not black and white like murder by firearm.
Posted that just up above.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#9 Unread post by High_Side »

Canada sits in between the UK and the US for gun control and is closest to the US in culture. For the stats possessed: how do we compare? I could go on a fishing trip but I am sure you have them ready to go.... :mrgreen: And does "murder by firearm" include the cases where someone is killed by either their accidental discharge of a firearm or accidental shooting from someone else?

Because of the passion on both sides I can't help but feel stats are manipulated to support personal arguements. But what the hell: lets hear 'em. Fire away.... :wink:

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Re: CO gun control bills

#10 Unread post by HYPERR »

Wrider wrote: Oh we definitely have a higher rate of firearm homicide, no arguments there. I said overall violent crime as defined by both Home Office and the FBI.
2011 violent crime UK: 2,100,000
Source: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-sta ... 11-12.html
2011 violent crime US: 1,203,564
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... lent-crime

Now keep in mind the population of the UK is 62,641,000 and the population for the US is 313,914,000
That translates to a per capita rate of:
UK: 3,352 / 100,000
US: 383 / 100,000
As you can see, the violent crime rate as reported by the Home Office (British version of the FBI) is 10 times higher than the violent crime reported by the FBI.
I'm sorry Wrider but the sources you provided does nothing to support your assertion. First of all, comparing two different sources on data that have subjective interpretations like "violent crimes" is usually highly flawed. This is akin to comparing a list compiled by Wrider of "fast bikes" made in the UK, and a list compiled by TMW of "fast bikes" made in the US. What does fast exactly mean? What is violent?

I did take the time to look at your links and found severe discrepancies, huge discrepancies between the two sources on what violent crimes are and how they are measured.

Here is the US FBI definition: "murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." Fairly cut and dry, what i would agree to would be violent crimes.

The UK HO definition is far more broad, "violence spans minor assaults, such as pushing and shoving that result in no physical harm through to serious assault and murder" and "Sexual assault covers offences from indecent exposure to rape"

The UK's definition of violence must be exponentially broader than ours: "In half of incidents identified by the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) (50%) and offences recorded by the police (56%), the violence resulted in no physical injury to the victim."

Here is a big kicker, "The data presented in Crime in the United States reflect the Hierarchy Rule, which requires that only the most serious offense in a multiple-offense criminal incident be counted." So if a person commits an assault, battery, kidnap, sexual assault, torture, murder, etc etc etc, that only counts as one violent crime in the US, where in the UK it would count as 7+.

Wrider wrote: Japan is a much more respectful and reserved country than the US is.
And you believe this to be a fact because...?
What exactly is respectful? And what exactly is reserved???

Wrider wrote: Also, firearms have been outlawed from private ownership since the end of WWII.
This does not help your argument if you are implying this is why Japan is such a safe country and why you feel the people there are more "respectful".

Wrider wrote: Germany and France are also culturally different than the US in the fact that they're more socially open and trusting than the US.
Do you have any reliable source that supports this assertion? I never heard this before. I think the US is one of the most socially open countries in the world.

Wrider wrote: Germany tends to have a lot more restrictions in place for things, including driving and firearms.
I guess you never heard of the autobahn....

Wrider wrote:France is a very socially liberal country though, including with its restrictions
UK has to be far more liberal than France. What would make you think France is more liberal than the UK?
Wrider wrote:The UK had guns until 1997 (after which the violent crime rate jumped 4X btw).
Your own source shows this to be untrue, in fact, it shows the exact opposite. The link you provided states that violent crime has halved, not increased.

"The number of violent incidents has halved from its peak in 1995 when the survey estimated over 4.2 million violent incidents."

High_Side wrote:And does "murder by firearm" include the cases where someone is killed by either their accidental discharge of a firearm or accidental shooting from someone else?
No it does not. In the original link I provided, murder by firearm is specifically defined as: "intentional homicides committed with a firearm."
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Re: CO gun control bills

#11 Unread post by Wrider »

Ayayayayaya

Sooo what I'm getting here is "your sources are unable to be compared because they're different." Which basically nullifies any comparison either you or I could make about the two countries, including firearm homicides.

Look closer at the FBI definition, it also includes the simple assaults, such as pushing, shoving, purse snatching, etc.

Japan has always had a more respectful culture than we have had. Ask anyone who has studied the culture, anyone who has been there, etc. Several of my friends have been stationed there, and to break up a huge car meet (100+) with DJ competitions and people comparing exhaust notes, you know what they have to do? Get one cop car to make a single pass through the parking lot, and everyone packs up. That simply doesn't happen here. It's simply a completely different culture than the US is. Not sure why that's so hard to get.

I have heard of the autobahn. Have you heard of the German licensure system? Costs thousands of dollars, takes a minimum of a year to get through, an actual driving test instead of a trip around the block, and you have to prove you can do your own maintenance before you can even get on the road. Not to mention that punishment for traffic infractions is much more severe than in the US.

As for the liberal society of Germany and France, that's my opinion based off of friends reports from traveling there. Plenty of them report seeing sex in public in France, plenty of them report business hours being blatantly ignored for the simple reason of "That's the French way" (in fact I forget which company, but a large one is shutting down a plant over there because of that very problem).
As for Germany, maybe not as liberal as France, but definitely more open as well. Stuff that wouldn't be tolerated here is not a problem there. Public nudity, drinking alcohol in public, that's pretty much accepted over there. Try that in the UK or the US and see how long you can avoid arrest.

As for the drop in crime, keep in mind that the drop also includes the ceasefire declared by the IRA fighting for their independence. They alone were responsible for a couple of dozen deaths and plenty of violent attacks.
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#12 Unread post by HYPERR »

Wrider wrote: Japan has always had a more respectful culture than we have had. Ask anyone who has studied the culture, anyone who has been there, etc. Several of my friends have been stationed there, and to break up a huge car meet (100+) with DJ competitions and people comparing exhaust notes, you know what they have to do? Get one cop car to make a single pass through the parking lot, and everyone packs up. That simply doesn't happen here. It's simply a completely different culture than the US is. Not sure why that's so hard to get.
If according to you, Japan is so much more respectful culture than the US, then doesn't that weaken your position severely? A respectful culture would be more respectful of firearms. A disrespectful culture as you imply the US to be, would not be respectful of firearms. Which would you rather have holding dangerous weapons; a group of respectful people or a group of disrespectful people?
Wrider wrote: I have heard of the autobahn. Have you heard of the German licensure system? Costs thousands of dollars, takes a minimum of a year to get through, an actual driving test instead of a trip around the block, and you have to prove you can do your own maintenance before you can even get on the road. Not to mention that punishment for traffic infractions is much more severe than in the US.
This is the same in pretty much any industrialized country, the tests are far more difficult to pass than in the US. Driving is a previledge, not a right. So many people in this country does not realize this.

Wrider wrote: As for the liberal society of Germany and France, that's my opinion based off of friends reports from traveling there. Plenty of them report seeing sex in public in France, plenty of them report business hours being blatantly ignored for the simple reason of "That's the French way" (in fact I forget which company, but a large one is shutting down a plant over there because of that very problem).
As for Germany, maybe not as liberal as France, but definitely more open as well. Stuff that wouldn't be tolerated here is not a problem there. Public nudity, drinking alcohol in public, that's pretty much accepted over there. Try that in the UK or the US and see how long you can avoid arrest.
You and I clearly have different definition of liberal...
That being said, I do not know what relevance this has to the fact that gun control has worked very well in Japan, UK, Iceland, & Denmark as I originally mentioned.

Wrider wrote: As for the drop in crime, keep in mind that the drop also includes the ceasefire declared by the IRA fighting for their independence. They alone were responsible for a couple of dozen deaths and plenty of violent attacks.
Wow you see the huge irony in your statement? So a fact that a ceasefire of firearm was ordered was the reason there was a drop in death and violent attacks? Gee...what a shocker!
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Re: CO gun control bills

#13 Unread post by Wrider »

Not necessarily. That to me means that they respect each other a whole lot more than people in the US do, which means less violence in general, and much less murder period.

I definitely agree with you on the US having a way-too-easy driving test.

According to you, since all guns in those countries are outlawed, there ought to be zero gun violence, correct? Unfortunately that is not the case. It may be old and sound simple, but the saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is very true.

Also unfortunate for your argument is the fact that Switzerland has a lower gun crime rate than almost any other country, yet has a full military firearm and ammo for said firearm in almost every civilian house.

How about here on the home front where Houston had 52 gun related murders in 2012, whereas Chicago, which has a whole lot more gun laws and doesn't have the illegal immigration problems, had over 500?

Or Kennesaw, GA, where they passed an admittedly unenforceable but widely followed law to require a gun in every household, and crime subsequently dropped 89%.

Insulting my intelligence won't get you anywhere. Yes I see how you could perceive that as ironic, but the point of it was that the violence dropped primarily because of that ceasefire, not because of the gun ban that went into effect. If you look at the charts on those pages, the IRA was most active during the same exact years as the higher crime rates, and dropped as soon as it declared the ceasefire.

I'm looking for a respectful debate, not personal attacks here. If that was the case I could simply post on craigslist rants and raves.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#14 Unread post by High_Side »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.

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#15 Unread post by HYPERR »

Wrider wrote:Not necessarily. That to me means that they respect each other a whole lot more than people in the US do, which means less violence in general, and much less murder period.
Which is exactly my argument that if either country should have the stricter gun control, it should be the US and not the other way around.
Wrider wrote: According to you, since all guns in those countries are outlawed, there ought to be zero gun violence, correct? Unfortunately that is not the case. It may be old and sound simple, but the saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is very true.
Once again this is not true, outlaws in Japan rarely have guns. You almost never hear of a Yakuza with guns either.
Wrider wrote: Also unfortunate for your argument is the fact that Switzerland has a lower gun crime rate than almost any other country, yet has a full military firearm and ammo for said firearm in almost every civilian house.
Switzerland does not have a low gun crime rate. You do know that Switzerland is a tiny spec of a country with less people than New York City don't you? According to this data, Switzerland had 68 murder by firearm, while UK had 14. Switzerland has a population of less than 8 million while the UK has over 63 million. So you are over thirty eight times more likely to get murdered by firearm in Switzerland than the UK.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms
Wrider wrote: How about here on the home front where Houston had 52 gun related murders in 2012, whereas Chicago, which has a whole lot more gun laws and doesn't have the illegal immigration problems, had over 500?
Chicago does not have 100% gun control. Also having gun control in one city and not in bordering cities does absolutely nothing. Houston and Chicago have very different demographics, as well as other huge differences. Using manipulated stats like this proves nothing other than to weaken your argument. Also since when do illegal immigrants have more guns than US citizens?

Wrider wrote: Insulting my intelligence won't get you anywhere. Yes I see how you could perceive that as ironic, but the point of it was that the violence dropped primarily because of that ceasefire, not because of the gun ban that went into effect. If you look at the charts on those pages, the IRA was most active during the same exact years as the higher crime rates, and dropped as soon as it declared the ceasefire.
I don't know where I insulted your intelligence. I have always respected your opinion, I usually read your posts and always liked you. Had I not felt that way, I would not have taken the time and effort to post my views on your thread.
Wrider wrote: I'm looking for a respectful debate, not personal attacks here. If that was the case I could simply post on craigslist rants and raves.
I'm not sure how this debate was disrespectful or involved personal attacks; I don't see it. Sure maybe some snippy remarks from both you and me. That being said, I don't see how you can start a thread on something as controversial and hotly debated topic as this and not be ready to take or give a little heat. I have seen many threads on other forums regarding gun control and this one is the most mild mannered one by a significant margin.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#16 Unread post by HYPERR »

High_Side wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.
Well certainly the main factor is that the US has far more gun ownership per capita. According to this source, the per capita gun ownership is almost 3x higher, but not 5x. What do you think are the other factors that decrease the gun related death in Canada? Does Canada have tougher laws?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... dents-2007
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Re: CO gun control bills

#17 Unread post by Wrider »

High_Side wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.
Ummm, I have to point out that many common firearms in the US (such as 3 of the pistols and one of the long guns in my house) are strictly forbidden in Canada, not to mention every one of Canada's guns is registered to the owner (which most 2A supporters in the US would argue is a bad thing), and to be honest, your country has a whole lot more respect for each other than we in the US have, not to mention you don't have to deal with the gang/illegal immigration problems we have. Plus if you look at the breakdown, 6.3 of the 10.2 are suicide. Basically we kill ourselves with guns because we don't feel like doing it a longer/more drawn out way.

Take suicide out of the equation and it goes to:
US: 3.9
Canada: .34
Mexico: 10.4 (or still higher than when you include the 62% of the gun deaths in the US attributed to suicide)

That said, you do bring up a good point about gun control and whether it works or not. Check out Mexico in that list. Total gun ban for private ownership, military and police checkpoints everywhere with them carrying full auto military weapons.

Or check out South Africa. Total gun registry and the rate is 18.5. Take out suicide and it's sitting at 17.

In the US, where they are working to ban all "assault weapons" (a misnomer in and of itself), you are actually 2.3 times as likely (817 vs 351) to be kicked or punched to death than shot with any kind of rifle, either on purpose or on accident. In fact that number ALONE is higher than the total murder rate in the UK (817 vs 724 in 2009).

In Canada the number is even a higher discrepancy, at 817 vs 610.

The fact is that the US is a much more violent country, and in my opinion, the guns are not the problem. I've never shot anyone, I've only aimed at someone once, and it was in defense of my life. All of my guns are either for hunting, protection, or some combination of both.


Hyperr, you posted since I started this reply.

I saw an insult toward intelligence when you were trying to point out irony.

Houston and Chicago definitely have different demographics. Houston has to deal with the immigration issue, a bigger drug problem (with everything coming across the border from Mexico), and just as many gangs as Chicago has. Yet very loose gun laws mean that the people can defend themselves and crime tends to go down in that regard. Not to mention that Chicago did attempt a full handgun ban (struck down).

Illegal immigrants often own guns. Most of those guns are stolen and/or obtained on the black market (occasionally you will get the unscrupulous straw buyer or dealer). Technically speaking, every one of those guns is illegally owned. And if you start checking out violence numbers in Phoenix, LA, TX, etc, you'll see that a good portion of it is done by illegal immigrants or first generation offspring.

As far as Japanese with guns. Private gun ownership is completely banned in Japan. Meaning that anyone killed with a gun was killed by someone who was already illegally in possession of one. 100% outlaws having guns vs citizens having them. My point with the Japanese respecting others is that they don't need to defend themselves from one another nearly as often as someone in the US does. How often do you get cut off, get the finger, or get someone otherwise enacting roadrage toward you? Ask the Japanese and that's fairly uncommon. I prefer to be able to defend myself from someone else who is aggressive toward me without having to rely on fighting skills as a last resort. (I have them, and have never lost a fight, even as a bouncer, but still prefer to have the upper hand if someone comes after me.)

Switzerland DOES have a low gun rate. As a matter of fact 68/8,000,000 comes out to a gun murder rate of .00085%.

As far as that chart you posted. Now go look at total murders per capita. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita The US doesn't even make the list of the top 37. Then compare the total US gun murders to the total US population (9369 vs 311,705,000) to get a rate of gun murder per capita of .003%. So basically per 100,000, approximately 3 people will be shot every year.



Anyway it's definitely a heated subject and I'll try to keep that in mind.
Check out this reply and see what you think.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#18 Unread post by High_Side »

[quote="HYPERR"][quote="High_Side"]What do you think are the other factors that decrease the gun related death in Canada? Does Canada have tougher laws?
People own guns - but it's a lot more restrictive. The rules are so tight here that as a gun owner your gun is locked over here and your ammo is locked over there. If it is a pistol you can basically carry it between your residence and a gun club. Perhaps a lack of opportunity is the answer.

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Re: CO gun control bills

#19 Unread post by Wrider »

Don't forget that anything along the lines of an AK is banned. Or any handgun with a barrel length of less than 105 cm (4.13 inches). Or anything along the lines of a muzzle brake/flash suppressor. Or an assisted opening knife. Or anything capable of being modified to fire full auto. Or anything with a barrel less than 18 inches. Or anything shorter than 26 inches. Or anything that the government has said is illegal. Or a Taser. Or popular home defense rounds for your shotgun (flechettes). Or nunchaku. Or a shuriken. Or any kind of blade that is carried in a belt. Or anything similar to (but not) an ulu. Or a blowgun. Or tear gas. Or mace.

Want to talk about restricted weapons? That's a whole other list. It includes the AR and any variants thereof.
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Re: CO gun control bills

#20 Unread post by Hanson »

Many gun control laws are predicated on the false assumption that violence is inherently bad when some violence is clearly good.

An example: a women shoots her rapist dead, this is good violence.

Gun control laws should be structured to maximize good violence while minimizing bad violence and we should evaluate both new and existing gun control laws by this common-sense standard.

It should also be understood that guns have a leveling impact on violence. Please consider that a small women with a gun is not at a great disadvantage to a large man with a gun, but if guns are removed then those who are physically powerful will have an advantage over those who are not. As most violent criminals are younger men who are, on average, physically stronger then most of the rest of the public, gun bans give the advantage to criminals in comparison to their victims who are most often women, children, the frail, the elderly, or anyone else that looks like an easy target.

A basic truth: societies that have a lot of bad violence have a deficiency in good violence.

Good violence can be increased by the government spending more on policing and also by the actions of the public. A women who shoots her rapist dead is not only protecting her own virtue, she is benefiting society as a whole by improving the ratio of good violence to bad violence. When we increase good violence, the initial result will be more total violence, but as bad people are either killed or removed from the public by criminal prosecutions the overall level of violence within a society will also rapidly decline.

Reducing gun violence is a trivial exercise, simply ban all guns, but it is decreasing all violence within a society that is far more problematic and made much more difficult by any law that makes it harder, or impossible, for good people to access guns for self defense.
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