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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:24 pm 
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I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:49 am 
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TrueFaith wrote:
I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


There's a difference between the same frontal area of a car and one of a single headlight motorcycle. You can improve your "size" with extra lights.

The hope is by presenting a driver with a much larger target, their brain will not automatically dismiss the object as too far away or too slow to be a threat. The single motorcycle headlight doesn't offer an easy target to judge speed or distance, so most motorists subconsciously throw the information away. Even if you aim the same size headlight right at them, this will happen. However, presenting an out of the ordinary profile with extra running lights can jar the motorist into taking another look or having it break through their "autopilot" mental filters.

I don't think target fixation is a direct cause of many accidents, but it can add another factor to already dangerous situations.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:08 am 
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Skier wrote:
TrueFaith wrote:
I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


There's a difference between the same frontal area of a car and one of a single headlight motorcycle. You can improve your "size" with extra lights.

The hope is by presenting a driver with a much larger target, their brain will not automatically dismiss the object as too far away or too slow to be a threat. The single motorcycle headlight doesn't offer an easy target to judge speed or distance, so most motorists subconsciously throw the information away. Even if you aim the same size headlight right at them, this will happen. However, presenting an out of the ordinary profile with extra running lights can jar the motorist into taking another look or having it break through their "autopilot" mental filters.

I don't think target fixation is a direct cause of many accidents, but it can add another factor to already dangerous situations.


People pull out in front of Jeeps for the same reason they pull out in front of motorcycles. They looked further than they really were and jeeps have 2 huge headlights compared to motorcycles. So I dont see how your idea of more lights works. The problem with Jeeps are the lights are close together (though further apart than any extra lighting you would be able to add to a motorcycle) rather than far apart.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:24 pm 
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ofblong wrote:
Skier wrote:
TrueFaith wrote:
I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


There's a difference between the same frontal area of a car and one of a single headlight motorcycle. You can improve your "size" with extra lights.

The hope is by presenting a driver with a much larger target, their brain will not automatically dismiss the object as too far away or too slow to be a threat. The single motorcycle headlight doesn't offer an easy target to judge speed or distance, so most motorists subconsciously throw the information away. Even if you aim the same size headlight right at them, this will happen. However, presenting an out of the ordinary profile with extra running lights can jar the motorist into taking another look or having it break through their "autopilot" mental filters.

I don't think target fixation is a direct cause of many accidents, but it can add another factor to already dangerous situations.


People pull out in front of Jeeps for the same reason they pull out in front of motorcycles. They looked further than they really were and jeeps have 2 huge headlights compared to motorcycles. So I dont see how your idea of more lights works. The problem with Jeeps are the lights are close together (though further apart than any extra lighting you would be able to add to a motorcycle) rather than far apart.


This is the first I have heard about it. Can you link to your sources, please?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:57 am 
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Skier wrote:
ofblong wrote:
Skier wrote:
TrueFaith wrote:
I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


There's a difference between the same frontal area of a car and one of a single headlight motorcycle. You can improve your "size" with extra lights.

The hope is by presenting a driver with a much larger target, their brain will not automatically dismiss the object as too far away or too slow to be a threat. The single motorcycle headlight doesn't offer an easy target to judge speed or distance, so most motorists subconsciously throw the information away. Even if you aim the same size headlight right at them, this will happen. However, presenting an out of the ordinary profile with extra running lights can jar the motorist into taking another look or having it break through their "autopilot" mental filters.

I don't think target fixation is a direct cause of many accidents, but it can add another factor to already dangerous situations.


People pull out in front of Jeeps for the same reason they pull out in front of motorcycles. They looked further than they really were and jeeps have 2 huge headlights compared to motorcycles. So I dont see how your idea of more lights works. The problem with Jeeps are the lights are close together (though further apart than any extra lighting you would be able to add to a motorcycle) rather than far apart.


This is the first I have heard about it. Can you link to your sources, please?


did you not read what I said???? I grew up riding in jeeps and its common knowledge in all jeep forums that this is the case. I have seen it many many many times where people pull out because we "appeared" further than we were. Most jeep accidents I have seen been to the person who caused it said "they looked further away". I dont need a source for something I have seen and witnessed with my own eyes many times over. You dont want to believe it thats not my problem.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:56 am 
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ofblonng,
So you're saying that because a Jeep's headlights are closer together than most cars, this gets transmitted to an oncoming driver as the Jeep appearing farther away? That makes sense considering how inattentive cagers are in the first place and how they only rely on an abrupt glance to completely size up a traffic situation before committing. If that's the case, then I imagine this problem is specific to Jeep CJs and not to other models like a Cherokee Chief or Liberty. Interesting.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:28 am 
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ofblong wrote:
Skier wrote:
ofblong wrote:
Skier wrote:
TrueFaith wrote:
I don't think there's any way a motorcycle will ever present the same frontal profile area as a car, no matter how many accessory lights are added. Bikes ride on two wheels as opposed to four and will always appear smaller and more inconspicuous to an oncoming 4-wheeled driver. So small, in fact, that many drivers continue to state "I didn't see him" after abruptly turning into the bike's path. Anything that makes you more noticeable on the road is a good thing. High beams during the day is one way to accomplish that. I would much rather deal with the possibility of "target fixation", which must be statistically smaller.
I don't recall a lot of motorcycle accidents being blamed on "I couldn't stop looking at that bright light, so I hit him". I do know that far too many are the result of the driver saying "I never saw him".


There's a difference between the same frontal area of a car and one of a single headlight motorcycle. You can improve your "size" with extra lights.

The hope is by presenting a driver with a much larger target, their brain will not automatically dismiss the object as too far away or too slow to be a threat. The single motorcycle headlight doesn't offer an easy target to judge speed or distance, so most motorists subconsciously throw the information away. Even if you aim the same size headlight right at them, this will happen. However, presenting an out of the ordinary profile with extra running lights can jar the motorist into taking another look or having it break through their "autopilot" mental filters.

I don't think target fixation is a direct cause of many accidents, but it can add another factor to already dangerous situations.


People pull out in front of Jeeps for the same reason they pull out in front of motorcycles. They looked further than they really were and jeeps have 2 huge headlights compared to motorcycles. So I dont see how your idea of more lights works. The problem with Jeeps are the lights are close together (though further apart than any extra lighting you would be able to add to a motorcycle) rather than far apart.


This is the first I have heard about it. Can you link to your sources, please?


did you not read what I said???? I grew up riding in jeeps and its common knowledge in all jeep forums that this is the case. I have seen it many many many times where people pull out because we "appeared" further than we were. Most jeep accidents I have seen been to the person who caused it said "they looked further away". I dont need a source for something I have seen and witnessed with my own eyes many times over. You dont want to believe it thats not my problem.


I have anecdotal evidence of 99% of sports bike riders go down at least once a season. It doesn't make it true for all sports bike riders, just my sample group.

Assuming your premise is correct, it's a similar issue with motorcycles: a single headlight can give the appearance of two headlights a very long distance away. The average driver's brain will throw the information of an incoming object away because it thinks it's too far away to be a threat. In my opinion, this problem can be exacerbated by using a highbeam, even during the day: You are "hiding" part of your bike's size by jamming more bright light into other motorists' eyes. It's tough to determine the size of an object when there are very bright lights pointed at you from it.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:14 am 
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The idea that brighter lights "hides" your bike is stupid.

The problem is that the cagers just don't see us. Shining a brighter light at them makes a larger percentage of them aware of my existence.

End of story. I use my highbeams in the day.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:49 am 
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jonnythan wrote:
The idea that brighter lights "hides" your bike is stupid.

The problem is that the cagers just don't see us. Shining a brighter light at them makes a larger percentage of them aware of my existence.

End of story. I use my highbeams in the day.


In that case why don't you get an aircraft landing light. Those puppies put out a lot more light than any high beam. :roll:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Johnj wrote:
jonnythan wrote:
The idea that brighter lights "hides" your bike is stupid.

The problem is that the cagers just don't see us. Shining a brighter light at them makes a larger percentage of them aware of my existence.

End of story. I use my highbeams in the day.


In that case why don't you get an aircraft landing light. Those puppies put out a lot more light than any high beam. :roll:

1) It's illegal.

2) My bike's electrical system is so weak it can't even handle a pair of driving lights on a light bar ;)

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