You are a Beginner and want a 600cc+ sportbike? READ THIS!

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Nalian
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#101 Unread post by Nalian » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:27 am

b!keR wrote:as I can see...everybody on this forum are scared of SUPERSPORTS bikes. :mrgreen:
Only when they're underneath total n00bs.

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#102 Unread post by shalihe74 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:32 am

b!keR wrote:
as I can see...everybody on this forum are scared of SUPERSPORTS bikes.


Only when they're underneath total n00bs.
+1
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#103 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:52 am

Nalian wrote:
b!keR wrote:as I can see...everybody on this forum are scared of SUPERSPORTS bikes. :mrgreen:
Only when they're underneath total n00bs.
In this forum if you want a supersports 600CC the following requirments apply:

1. You need to have had raced in a F1 competition.
2. You need to have had a miniumum of 20 years+ on a bike that is smaller than 600CC.
3. You need to have completed all the safety, racing, first aid and advance drivers course that are on the market.
4. You need the blessing of the "hard "O Ring"" fanatical anti 600CC people on this forum.

Then you just might get the node of approval

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#104 Unread post by jonnythan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:00 am

Peter Y wrote:
Nalian wrote:
b!keR wrote:as I can see...everybody on this forum are scared of SUPERSPORTS bikes. :mrgreen:
Only when they're underneath total n00bs.
In this forum if you want a supersports 600CC the following requirments apply:

1. You need to have had raced in a F1 competition.
2. You need to have had a miniumum of 20 years+ on a bike that is smaller than 600CC.
3. You need to have completed all the safety, racing, first aid and advance drivers course that are on the market.
4. You need the blessing of the "hard "O Ring"" fanatical anti 600CC people on this forum.

Then you just might get the node of approval
Or you can be a jerk and have everyone hate your obnoxious attitude.

The reality is that people on this forum have no problem recommending supersport bikes to people who want them and have a few thousand miles under their belts.

They vehemently recommend against them for new riders.

End of story. Please put the attitude away.
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#105 Unread post by DivideOverflow » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:09 am

Peter Y wrote:
Nalian wrote:
b!keR wrote:as I can see...everybody on this forum are scared of SUPERSPORTS bikes. :mrgreen:
Only when they're underneath total n00bs.
In this forum if you want a supersports 600CC the following requirments apply:

1. You need to have had raced in a F1 competition.
2. You need to have had a miniumum of 20 years+ on a bike that is smaller than 600CC.
3. You need to have completed all the safety, racing, first aid and advance drivers course that are on the market.
4. You need the blessing of the "hard "O Ring"" fanatical anti 600CC people on this forum.

Then you just might get the node of approval
Or a year on a smaller bike without crashing..... There is a reason that insurance on supersports is so expensive. Because noobs CRASH THEM! Get a freakin clue... the statistics on these things aren't just made up.

I started on a 250cc, then moved up to a 1979 KZ650 after 6 months (right around 50 hp), then grabbed an 84 VF700F Interceptor with 70 hp, then a 94 VFR750 Interceptor with 96hp. This is over a period of 2 years. I rode each of these bikes until I felt comfortable with the increased power and handling.

Now I ride a Ducati Supersport 1000DS, which actually has less horsepower than the 94 Interceptor (but more torque). If I would have jumped straight from the 250 to the Ducati, I can be pretty sure that I would not have the same level of confidence as I do today. Working your way up, while trying to reach the potential of each bike along the way, will give you a much stronger skills base then jumping too far and trying to "grow into the bike".

Yes, I've had quite a few bikes in the 2.5 years I've been riding, but I only took small losses on each bike I sold (very small, if any), and the experience that comes from moving up gradually is priceless.

On a different note, Jackc34, if you are comfortable that the dealer will honor warranty claims, and you will be able to get parts, I would definitely go for it. A 3 year powertrain warranty is excellent, and even 18 months on all parts is better than the 1 yr standard. That is a sweet looking 250! And 4.5 gallon tank one one of those should get you crazy miles before fillup! I would expect around 60mph on that bike.
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#106 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:13 am

jonnythan wrote: End of story. Please put the attitude away.
Whats life without attitude? U know theres no need shy away from attitude just because its not for you. Embrace diversity, be open minded to differing views. There are numerous countries in the world with various cultures and varying traditions. As we observe, learn and understand their ways and means of doing things we actually become a better person. What I find here is that everything is like a club. You differ and your and outcast. Anyway im persistent and wont shy away. I have a point to prove and will continue my crusade until I prove it.

Along the way I might just pick up some excellent biking tips also.

PS: Was a beautiful day in Amsterdam today. Went for a ride around the Canal's in the city. :wink:

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#107 Unread post by jonnythan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:23 am

Life's too short to put up with jerks.
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#108 Unread post by Sev » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:26 am

And what pray tell is the point that you are trying to make?

You'll note that on this forum (should you choose to read the forums as a whole) we have acknowledged that it is more then possible to start on a supersport and not crash. You may even become a competant rider in doing so. However, this does not make you a good rider, nor does it make you special. It merely means you chose to ignore the advice of those more experienced then you.

If a smoker were to tell you to not start smoking would you still do it? No, because they know what you're about to attempt, and have a far better understanding of what goes into it then you could. New riders sit on the outside of the picture and have only a few preconcieved notions. A lot of the riders on this forum have thousands of miles and several years to several decades of experience that they are attempting to share with new riders. And to be very honest it becomes amazingly frustrating when they choose to ignore advice they asked for.


As for your bike - the katana 600, it isn't a supersport, nor will it ever be. Having neither started on, nor dealt with a supersport I fail to see how you're in a situation to recomend one.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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#109 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:22 pm

Sev wrote:
If a smoker were to tell you to not start smoking would you still do it? No, because they know what you're about to attempt, and have a far better understanding of what goes into it then you could. New riders sit on the outside of the picture and have only a few preconcieved notions. A lot of the riders on this forum have thousands of miles and several years to several decades of experience that they are attempting to share with new riders. And to be very honest it becomes amazingly frustrating when they choose to ignore advice they asked for.


As for your bike - the katana 600, it isn't a supersport, nor will it ever be. Having neither started on, nor dealt with a supersport I fail to see how you're in a situation to recomend one.
U know my opinions will differ with you but at least you go about expressing your views constructivley. I respect that. Im far from a bike expert but never see myself being so narrow minded that I cannot interact with people with differing views.

There comes a point where overcomming the one sided views becomes prime objective rather than interactive bike discussion.

Anyway different world , different views. You guys are what you are and likewise for me. I guess the fact that we have so many different cultures/countries (in europe) in a condensed geography will mean we will always be different to the folks on the other side of the water.

Ill just continue to interact and see how bumpy the ride gets. :|

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#110 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:24 pm

jonnythan wrote:Life's too short to put up with jerks.
Yeah thats the spirit. Great intellect,really constructive.

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#111 Unread post by ANDS! » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:24 pm

Id be more worried about these Super-Sports getting jacked - they just scream "Steal me".

EDIT: 180HP - lol. . .sheesh. . .

My philosophy is this, if after taking in all the advice, the stories and anecdotes and practicial knowledge - one still goes down one path over another, then it is on their shoulders to carry the consequences and the rewards of such an action. Some will succeed, others will not. Thats not having attitude, or being sanctimonious (although there might be some of that here - :laughing: ) -

That just life.

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#112 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:03 pm

ANDS! wrote:Id be more worried about these Super-Sports getting jacked - they just scream "Steal me".

EDIT: 180HP - lol. . .sheesh. . .

My philosophy is this, if after taking in all the advice, the stories and anecdotes and practicial knowledge - one still goes down one path over another, then it is on their shoulders to carry the consequences and the rewards of such an action. Some will succeed, others will not. Thats not having attitude, or being sanctimonious (although there might be some of that here - :laughing: ) -

That just life.
SPOT ON AGREE TO THE VERY LAST WORD.

This is what I mean about being able to evaluate both sides of the story in a fair and objective manner.

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#113 Unread post by ANDS! » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:00 pm

Dont get me wrong, I think its silly for someone to jump on something that is far and away regarded as an intermediate machine (these 750 and up), BUT - sometimes ones sheer determination and almost ana attention to detail and safety may well be able to counter that. If someone said they were getting a mean machine (my generic term for one of these power machines), BUT said they were only going to be taking out on wide. . .WIDE open spaces until they became one with the machine - Id imagnie folks would still say "hrmmm. . .you sure you dont want a 250 Ninja?", but the anxiety is alot less than a person who hops on a Ducati 1100 (?) at the dealership after riding pee-wee motorcross for the last year, and proccedes to crash as he "tests" the ride. . .

At the end of the day, were all responsible for the choices we make. So long as someone tells me their choices arent tempered with ego and pride (whether you know it or not) - theres really not a whole lot that can be said at that point. I think the majority of people assume thats why folks are making the decisions they are making; whether thats true or not.

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Ok,

#114 Unread post by jackc34 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:06 pm

Here's my deal on any bike,

1.Cost,as I am not a rich person I have to consider the price first,
And the bike I posted is only $4000 total,and is about $50 a month.

2.Insurrance,As a 600cc will run about $200 a month or more,and the one i posted will run about $400 a year,which do you think is a better deal for me?

3.size does matter,Yet bigger isn't always better,the 600cc is a bit high off the ground for me,plus the weight is a bit much,and I have ridden dirt bikes,250 and up,so I am more used to that size.

4.Control of my own Ego,Ego says Get the monster crotch rocket,Show the girls what you're packing,But common sense says,Dude chill out,Get the smaller one,Get used to the ride then move up if you want,Plus bikes are like Cars,go out and buy a big "O Ring" Porche,or a viper and ride around town,the ladies will be all over the car,But listen in in secret at their talks and you'll hear one thing,Hey He has a kick "O Ring" car,so he has money,and hey I can take a small package and shallow penatration if it means getting with the money.

5.Use,I am not racing,I am not touring,I am just looking for a bike I like that will work to ride from my home to town,or maybe across the state line to a bigger mall or to a club,So why the hell do I need a $10.000 600cc road rashing,"O Ring" thrashing,Spine busting,Ticket attracting,Neckbreaking mechine?

End of my rant.

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#115 Unread post by jstark47 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:10 pm

Peter Y wrote:Whats life without attitude? U know theres no need shy away from attitude just because its not for you. Embrace diversity, be open minded to differing views........What I find here is that everything is like a club. You differ and your and outcast. Anyway im persistent and wont shy away. I have a point to prove and will continue my crusade until I prove it.
Peter, without my investing 2 hours plowing through the giant rolling clusterf**k this thread has become, is this a fair statement of your viewpoint, and the "point to prove" you have?

You have a Katana 600, a "gray zone" bike (see TechTMW's June 2005 "Guidelines" post, this forum). You acquired it about 5-6 weeks ago. Your point is: people on TMW should not make blanket recommendations against 600cc sportbikes for beginners without considering the beneficial effect of 1) extensive European training programs and 2) the reduced horsepower of the Katana in comparison to a race replica (e.g. GSX-R600) bike ? Your supporting evidence for this point is that you've done fine riding your Katana for the last 5-6 weeks. Fairly stated?

I have two points in reaction:
  • 1. OK, some people on TMW have been doctrinaire about the "no 600cc sportbike for newbs" rule. Passions and egos get involved, and we lose sight of the real issue: risk management and knowing where the odds lie. There are probably many instances of the extreme case: people beginning their riding career on race replica litre bikes, or Hayabusas, without tragedy. It happens. Nonetheless, the odds are less favorable than for starting on a smaller, lower powered bike. The recommendations in the stickies are for the way to learn with the best odds for success, not the only way.
    2. Extensive European training or not, 5-6 weeks of new rider experience does not cover all the potential conditions where the difference between a 600cc sportbike and a less specialized machine may signify the difference between merely being frightened versus getting hurt. Perhaps you are drawing conclusions based on insufficient data?
Regards, Jonathan
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#116 Unread post by DivideOverflow » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:37 pm

Lets just stop feeding the troll and ignore him. He just says the same thing over and over.
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#117 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:08 pm

DivideOverflow wrote:Lets just stop feeding the troll and ignore him. He just says the same thing over and over.
Oh theres some real worldy advice from the 23 year old dinasour. Venture out of your cave and look around before you call me a troll.

What give you the right to suggest to others of how they should interact with me? No need to openly display your imbecilic behaviour.
Last edited by Peter Y on Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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#118 Unread post by Peter Y » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:09 pm

jstark47 wrote:
Peter Y wrote:Whats life without attitude? U know theres no need shy away from attitude just because its not for you. Embrace diversity, be open minded to differing views........What I find here is that everything is like a club. You differ and your and outcast. Anyway im persistent and wont shy away. I have a point to prove and will continue my crusade until I prove it.
Peter, without my investing 2 hours plowing through the giant rolling clusterf**k this thread has become, is this a fair statement of your viewpoint, and the "point to prove" you have?

You have a Katana 600, a "gray zone" bike (see TechTMW's June 2005 "Guidelines" post, this forum). You acquired it about 5-6 weeks ago. Your point is: people on TMW should not make blanket recommendations against 600cc sportbikes for beginners without considering the beneficial effect of 1) extensive European training programs and 2) the reduced horsepower of the Katana in comparison to a race replica (e.g. GSX-R600) bike ? Your supporting evidence for this point is that you've done fine riding your Katana for the last 5-6 weeks. Fairly stated?

I have two points in reaction:
  • 1. OK, some people on TMW have been doctrinaire about the "no 600cc sportbike for newbs" rule. Passions and egos get involved, and we lose sight of the real issue: risk management and knowing where the odds lie. There are probably many instances of the extreme case: people beginning their riding career on race replica litre bikes, or Hayabusas, without tragedy. It happens. Nonetheless, the odds are less favorable than for starting on a smaller, lower powered bike. The recommendations in the stickies are for the way to learn with the best odds for success, not the only way.
    2. Extensive European training or not, 5-6 weeks of new rider experience does not cover all the potential conditions where the difference between a 600cc sportbike and a less specialized machine may signify the difference between merely being frightened versus getting hurt. Perhaps you are drawing conclusions based on insufficient data?
Regards, Jonathan
Fair comments....Done deal..................

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#119 Unread post by Koss » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:37 am

Jstark hit it on the head, and that encompasses most peoples viewers on the 600+cc supersport topic.

Btw, as what Sev stated earlier... you still havn't ridden on a 600+cc supersport bike... your bike may seem sporty, but its not in the same class as todays bikes. Sure, its engine is based on the ALOT older generation GSXR 600 engine... from the '80's, but that dosn't make it a supersport bike. The rest of the bike isn't taken from that same gsxr, and don't think I'm dissing your Katana... because i'm not, I actually am ok with katanas. I wanted to buy one at first too.

Here is my opinion, and yes, I can see what you are saying. After hearing you out, would I still say the 600cc katana is newbie friendly? nope. First, horsepower.... its a "grey" area bike. Just like the 650r ninja or the sv650s is.
Second... and this is what makes me say no for newbies, is its top heavy weight... the way it carries it... and how newbie UN-friendly that is.

Is it a cool bike? Sure. Is it a newbie friendly bike? no. Can a newbie learn on a 600 katana? Yes. Can a newbie learn how to ride on a zx-14? Probably. Is it the safest choice? no. Can a rider learn proper technique faster on a less powerful and heavy bike? Yes. Are you at more risk than if you were to get a ninja 500r for example? Yes, most likely. Will you crash? Almost every rider crashes no matter what... but there are exceptions.
Does that mean that it dosn't matter what you ride when you begin? No, it DOES matter.

Ok, this is a long post... one more point I wanna make.
Arguing that the whole logic behind us saying 600cc+ supersports are bad for newbies just because you think the 600cc katana is newbie friendly... its, not a very accurate thing to argue. No matter how much you say the 600cc katana is in the same class as the other 600cc SUPERsports... its not. No one ever said the 600cc katana is a SUPERsport bike. And it is even said time and time again ALL over this forum and stickies that there are "GREY" area bikes... bikes inbetween the two levels. Since the katana is not a 600cc SUPERsport, then it is safe to assume, that all SUPERsport bikes are not the safest option for a beginner. No matter if you think the katana is or not. Just because the stupid engine size is the same, it does not place it in the same catagory. Thats the same thinking as say... the 650cc displacement in the ninja 650r and sv650 motorcycles must be more horspower than the 600cc supersports... we all know thats not correct.

We also say that engine size isn't a good indicator of how powerful or userfriendly a motorcycle can be. Its the hard facts, the horspower and torque numbers, the weight, and how it carries that weight... which will determine that.

Ok, i'm off my soapbox now... sorry for the long post to anyone who is even crazy enough to read this.
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#120 Unread post by Koss » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:42 am

I forgot to add... time and time again you say how our cultures are different... and we shouldn't be able to make a proper accessment of newbies in all of europe than in all of north america. (btw this is a canadian forum, and alot of people you've talked to here in this thread are from the great white north. So thats why I say north america)

The truth is, most countries in the world have a tiered motorcycle licensing system. You can't start off on a 600cc, much less a 1000cc motorcycle like you can in the states.

You start off on usually something below a 250cc, or below a horsepower number, 33bhp for example... depending on the country and their laws, it can be smaller or different than my generalization. Even after their motorcycle training program. You can move up after a certain period of time.

So are you saying they are as closed minded as us Americans? hrm? Because we can't possibly understand all of "europe"... although there are european countries that have this tiered licensing system?

Just some food for thought.
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