Engine Ice

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Dichotomous
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#21 Unread post by Dichotomous »

if it really keeps the temperature down as advertised, which who knows, it might, then that wouldnt be a bad thing at all. and it wouldnt have an effect on the internal combustion either, the thermostat takes care of that, the fluid would just help to dump heat from the radiator faster.
thinking of that, have you cleaned your radiator well and good so it's as clean and open as possible? that should also help pull the heat out of the radiator, which is what will keep that fan off
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#22 Unread post by scan »

Dichotomous wrote:thinking of that, have you cleaned your radiator well and good so it's as clean and open as possible? that should also help pull the heat out of the radiator, which is what will keep that fan off
Good point. I always have been pretty picky about keeping the radiator clean though. I have always thought that keeping the engine cool is high on the list of things extend oil and engine life.

This week looks to be a warm one here, and I'll should have a chance to ride around a bit in the heat. I'll let everyone know if I see any change in fan or noticable warth.
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#23 Unread post by Dichotomous »

keeping the radiator clean and fresh coolant in the system will likely go much further than running a special kind of coolant. for what its worth, I'm in the camp that thinks you may have bought into some snake oil, but at least it doesnt sound like dangerous snake oil and its fresh coolant, so there's nothing WRONG with it (unless your system is specifically designed for something else, but thats not all THAT likely).
but you (an others who have heating problems on modern bikes) should be assured that you bike is designed with a cutoff when it gets too hot, and thats lower than when damage would occur, and modern oils can handle the heat our motors put out. But, you do still want to maintain the cooling system, 4 years may be a bit much, I'd personally do it sooner
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#24 Unread post by scan »

Yeah, I agree on the waiting too long. I don't think you should wait more than 2 years, and I've seen it in print that you should do it yearly. I think I was putting my engine in danger in the heat and the cold letting it wait so long, so next time I will do that sooner, with or without using Engine Ice.

But on the side of trying to give Engine Ice the benefit of the doubt, I read in a number of rider forums now, and from a few different advice columns, that the product is well spoken of. The ONLY negative thing being that it acts no different than regular coolant. Some users have found much less fan usage and much better heat dissipation. Is it true? I don't know for sure, but there are many positive amateur opinions. If I notice little change, during my next change I'll try OEM coolant. So ultimately my little post here should be a long term report on coolant. Keep standing by for news.
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#25 Unread post by Dichotomous »

yeah, I mean it could be better at dumping the heat into the metal of the radiator, and also better at picking up the heat as it flows through the water jacket, not saying it isnt. if you have read many reviews on it (especially for your specific bike or at least kawi's) then I doubt you have to worry about it harming anything by being the wrong type, so its not likely to be too corrosive or anything in that kind of damaging way.
if it does transfer heat better then that would be good, maybe the fan wont have to come on as much. though, is the fan controlled by the temperature of the fluid of the temperature of the metal of the radiator. I guess they would end up being the same, but if this fluid transfers the heat to the metal quicker then the metal might be hotter with that fluid in it then the metal would be if it had the standard fluid in it, which would mean the fan might be better off coming on at an earlier temperature. I mean if you are wanting the fan to come on less, then you need to be worried about the airflow through the radiator, or material of the radiator or radiator density. a high density aluminum radiator with ram induction from the front and a smooth exit larger than the intake would almost never need the fan when compared to a thinner standard metal radiator thats just stuck up behind a bikini fairing with the engine behind it (like on mine).
again scan, I am just typing theoretically here, not really off topic but off argument I guess. like I said I dont think you'll have any problems and it might make your bike run better, I'm just digressing into other more effective methods of increasing cooling on a bike which are likely not needed in your case.
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#26 Unread post by scan »

One thing I have learned through this process, and specifically the arguments here, is how the cooling system works. Previously I thought I understood, but I read a lot though as I got more worried about what I was doing.

The engine gets warm through the combustion process, and friction. When the coolant gets hot enough, the thermostat opens and let the coolant flow freely through the system. When it gets even hotter, the fan comes on. The fan turns on and off, and the thermostat opens and closes as the engine has need for more or less cooling.

So, if your coolant does too much cooling (no such thing in the real world, unless you were using Freon to cool the engine) it would be keeping the water jacket around the cylinders cooler, so the thermostat wouldn't open, and the water jacket would be within a safe range of operation. This is highly unlikely, as the thermostat is usually not set for a very high temp (I think around the 180 range), because you want the water flowing pretty early to keep that jacket cooler. The fan comes on when the bike is sitting still, it naturally gets hotter, since no air is moving through the radiator, but the radiator does have coolant flowing since the thermostat is open. Hopefully, the fan can bring the coolant to a heat level below the fan turn-on temp, but above the thermostat temp. Operating temp, logically, is going to be achieved by combustion. Oil against two moving metal surfaces will get warm. Combustible explosions cause heat as well. If your coolant stays cooler, it will not hurt your engine, unless you are talking about freezing the engine or something, but no coolant is going to bring the temp below the 100 degree mark. But if your thermostat never opened because the coolant was below the opening mark, you would in-effect be operating similar to an air-cooled engine. No liquid would circulate, but the temp would be safe.

So this is why I think if Engine Ice is not BS, that it might actually be helpful. I have thought about this a bit.
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#27 Unread post by jonnythan »

scan wrote:So, if your coolant does too much cooling (no such thing in the real world, unless you were using Freon to cool the engine) it would be keeping the water jacket around the cylinders cooler, so the thermostat wouldn't open, and the water jacket would be within a safe range of operation. This is highly unlikely, as the thermostat is usually not set for a very high temp (I think around the 180 range), because you want the water flowing pretty early to keep that jacket cooler. The fan comes on when the bike is sitting still, it naturally gets hotter, since no air is moving through the radiator, but the radiator does have coolant flowing since the thermostat is open. Hopefully, the fan can bring the coolant to a heat level below the fan turn-on temp, but above the thermostat temp. Operating temp, logically, is going to be achieved by combustion. Oil against two moving metal surfaces will get warm. Combustible explosions cause heat as well. If your coolant stays cooler, it will not hurt your engine, unless you are talking about freezing the engine or something, but no coolant is going to bring the temp below the 100 degree mark. But if your thermostat never opened because the coolant was below the opening mark, you would in-effect be operating similar to an air-cooled engine. No liquid would circulate, but the temp would be safe.

So this is why I think if Engine Ice is not BS, that it might actually be helpful. I have thought about this a bit.
The coolant inside the engine block has very, very little surface area with which to dissipate heat. Certainly not enough to dissipate enough heat to keep the engine under operating temperature.

No matter what kind of coolant is in there, it will heat up in short order and cause the thermostat to open. For most car engines at idle, the thermostat starts opening up in about 5-8 minutes. I'm sure that bikes are about the same.

BTW, the thermostat opens progressively. At 180 (or whatever), it begins to crack open. It opens more as the coolant temperature goes up. The idea is that the coolant is being kept in a narrow range. This works out to 185 - 195 degrees on my car. That range was not picked arbitrarily and could easily have been made 175 - 185 with a different thermostat and different programming on the fan.
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#28 Unread post by Dichotomous »

scan wrote:So, if your coolant does too much cooling (no such thing in the real world, unless you were using Freon to cool the engine) it would be keeping the water jacket around the cylinders cooler, so the thermostat wouldn't open, and the water jacket would be within a safe range of operation. This is highly unlikely, as the thermostat is usually not set for a very high temp (I think around the 180 range), because you want the water flowing pretty early to keep that jacket cooler. The fan comes on when the bike is sitting still, it naturally gets hotter, since no air is moving through the radiator, but the radiator does have coolant flowing since the thermostat is open. Hopefully, the fan can bring the coolant to a heat level below the fan turn-on temp, but above the thermostat temp. Operating temp, logically, is going to be achieved by combustion. Oil against two moving metal surfaces will get warm. Combustible explosions cause heat as well. If your coolant stays cooler, it will not hurt your engine, unless you are talking about freezing the engine or something, but no coolant is going to bring the temp below the 100 degree mark. But if your thermostat never opened because the coolant was below the opening mark, you would in-effect be operating similar to an air-cooled engine. No liquid would circulate, but the temp would be safe.

So this is why I think if Engine Ice is not BS, that it might actually be helpful. I have thought about this a bit.
freon wouldnt make your bike cooler. the heat has to go somewhere, freon cools the air in airconditioning systems because it sucks the heat out of the naked air (cause it boils at a low temperature) and then that "hot" freon is put into a radiator outside, same idea as a refridgerator. I guess you COULD run your bike cooler on freon, if you had a large enough radiator and no thermostat valve.
I am not sure if the coolant still circulates when the thermostat is closed, within the engine at least, and then the thermostate opens up an extra loop that happens to be a radiator and dumps the heat into the air.
Alcohal and C02 and many other chemicals work fine for cooling, most big buildings do not use air conditioning systems you'd regonize, many use solar energy to cool air without any electricity at all. completely passive but effective, just salt and water evaporating and condensing, IMENSE cooling potential in evaporation. but now THATS off topic
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#29 Unread post by scan »

jonnythan wrote:BTW, the thermostat opens progressively. At 180 (or whatever), it begins to crack open. It opens more as the coolant temperature goes up. The idea is that the coolant is being kept in a narrow range. This works out to 185 - 195 degrees on my car. That range was not picked arbitrarily and could easily have been made 175 - 185 with a different thermostat and different programming on the fan.
First, I want to say sorry about over-reacting to your earlier post. I can see I took that a little to personally. I didn't expect a response, and I thought I 'd have a chance to test this before I had to discuss the topic so much. I've actually now started to enjoy the discussion though and have leared a lot from having to research the topic and talk to one of my mechanic buddies.

You are correct, of course, about the progressive opening of the thermostat. I left that detail out. But if the thermostat did not open, and the coolant was kept below the 180 opening point, it would not be harmful to the engine. That was my point. It would not be harmful to anything in an engine to run at 130 degrees. As you point out, it is unlikely anything can be kept cool for long in the cylinder waterjacket area, so it is highly unlikely the thermostat would ever stay shut with any modern coolant. Now if you were talking about keeping the engine 30 degrees, I might agree that would be too cold - obviously the oil needs to be warm enough. Was the bike engineered to run below 180 normally? No, it was designed to run where most coolants are genearlly maintained. If your coolant stays cooler, why would it hurt the engine? Like I said, it would run like an air-cooled engine. It would proabably cost way too much to design a cooling system so effective, so they stay with what works and is efficiant enough. I think they could proably design a system that would keep the engine temp lower, and not hurt the operation of a bike. It would just be too costly. We've adapted the tech to what we have, what is the standard, and what is cost effective. But the job of the cooling system is to keep the engine cool, not keep it hot enough. I haven't found anything that says and engine needs to be 180 degrees to operate effectively.
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#30 Unread post by scan »

Dichotomous wrote: am not sure if the coolant still circulates when the thermostat is closed, within the engine at least, and then the thermostate opens up an extra loop that happens to be a radiator and dumps the heat into the air.
Yes, it does circulate, since the waterpump keeps running. Without the radiator, I think it does not do much to cool the system though.
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